Author Topic: Feeder setup - I'm confused...  (Read 20090 times)

SteveW

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Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« on: March 16, 2011, 12:10:08 AM »
I'm almost certainly doing something dumb here...
If I create/modify feeder units in 'job setup', by loading an existing feeder (say, 10x8mm Reel), 'make unit' named as , say, S_C_10x8.FDR (for Steves stock caps, on a 10x8 reel), then fill it with some parts from my current job, I get

*T 10x8mm Reel@

*F000 CAP_1U_16V_0603@ C0603 A000 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F001 CAP_1n_1%_0603@ C0603 A001 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F002 CAP_100N_16V_0603_X7R@ C0603 A002 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F003 CAP_10N_50V_0603_X7R_10%@ C0603 A003 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F001 CAP_10U_25V_1210@ C1210 A001 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F002 CAP_1U_0805_10%@ C0805 A002 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F003 CAP_1U_50V_1206@ C1206 A003 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F004 CAP_2N2_50V_0603_10%@ C0603 A004 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F005 CAP_4N7_50V_0603_10%@ C0603 A005 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F006 CAP_470P_50V_0603_10%@ C0603 A006 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0

Where the *F00x numbers don't count up, and I get indexes from the wrong lane.
Doing the same operation for my resistors, gets me

*T 10x8mm Reel@

*F000 R_0R0_0603@ R0603 D000 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F001 R_20R_0603_1%@ R0603 D001 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F002 R_33R_0603_1%@ R0603 D002 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F003 R_360R_0603_1%@ R0603 D003 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F004 R_1K_0603_1%@ R0603 D004 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F005 R_1K5_0603_1%@ R0603 D005 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F006 2K2@ R0603 D006 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F007 2K7@ R0603 D007 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F008 R_4K7_0603_1%@ R0603 D008 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0
*F009 R_10K_0603_1%@ R0603 D009 0 5000 500 5000 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1000 100 0 0

which counts up fine, and works.

What am I doing wrong? Can I just hack the FDR file, or will that have 'hilarious' consequences later?

Also, what sets where feeder A, B, C, D, etc end up on the machine? Do I just set the DIP switches to match what it thinks about things?  (is it just the order they're selected?)
I'm sure there's some documentation somewhere, this stuff looks easy, but is proving tedious to keep guessing.
Finally, any hints about using what looks like a cut-strip holder that's magneted onto the bed. Is that a 'passive feeder'? It looks mighty useful - are they available to buy more of?

This is all so close to being able to do non-trivial boards, but I keep tripping up...

Cheers,

Steve

Mike

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2011, 12:24:13 AM »
Also, what sets where feeder A, B, C, D, etc end up on the machine? Do I just set the DIP switches to match what it thinks about things?  (is it just the order they're selected?)
Set the DIP swithc to match the position the feeder is mounted, A is back right, D front right,  E back left, H front left (makes life easier if you don't move them about) NB they need a power cycle after changing switches.
The position shown in the bottom-left graphic in feeder setup determines which feeder is indexed. You can click on them to swap them around. e.g. the feeder that is shown bottom-right onscreen is D. The centre column is for passive feeders
Quote
Finally, any hints about using what looks like a cut-strip holder that's magneted onto the bed. Is that a 'passive feeder'? It looks mighty useful - are they available to buy more of?

Do you have a picture?


SteveW

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2011, 12:29:48 AM »
Righty-ho, setting the DIP switches is no big deal, it just struck me as if there might be a better way somehow.

Looking in my RPT file, I find this for another of my feeders.
Feeder Position: C
Feeder Name: S_T_10X8
Feeder Type: 10x8mm Reel

C000 D_BAV_99        Used in job ***
C001 TR_MOSFET_N_2N7002 Used in job ***
C002 Not Used        Not Used
C003 L_FERRITE_HF70ACB201209T`0805 Used in job ***
8768 L_FERRITE_1206_MLS1206_4T4-102C1206 Used in job ***
6100 L_FERRITE_1206_MLS1206_4T4-102C1206 Used in job ***
6100 CAP_47P_COG_0603_10% Used in job ***
6101 CAP_150p_5%_0603 Used in job ***
6102 CAP_10P_50V_0603_10% Used in job ***
6103 Not Used        Not Used

I now officially have no idea what's going on - requesting an index on a channel makes some other channel index. Is that first column expecting to be UnitChannel, or something else? Banks where it is UnitChannel do seem to work OK.

SteveW

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2011, 12:33:51 AM »
Strip feeder widget photo:

Mike

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2011, 02:28:17 AM »
Not seen one before but looks like  a holder for strips.

You shouldn't really need to get into the files as all the info is displayed onscreen.
In feeder assignment there is a 3x4 grid of feeders shown in the bottom-left corner - the left & right columns are the fixed feeder positions in their normal locations. e.g. if feeder 'fred' appears bottom-right, this will index the feeder whose DIP switches are set to 'D', which would normally live at the front-right position.

The potentially confusing thing is if you click on one of the feeder graphics, then another it will swap their positions, so keep an eye on the names.
 

SteveW

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2011, 10:09:53 AM »
Cheers. The feeder swappage I'm having the real trouble with is _within_ a bank. I index channel 9, I get channel 1. I index channel 4, I get channel 3, or some other randomness each time I define a new bank. This is why I'm suspecting my FDR and RPT files, which seem to be confused, if the first 'word' on each line is a hint as to the lane within the feeder (and, in the RPT file, the position of the feeder bank).
I'll have a go at just changing those fields, and see what happens, but I'm deeply confused.

Steve

SteveW

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2011, 02:30:50 PM »

Looking in my RPT file, I find this for another of my feeders.
Feeder Position: C
Feeder Name: S_T_10X8
Feeder Type: 10x8mm Reel

C000 D_BAV_99        Used in job ***
C001 TR_MOSFET_N_2N7002 Used in job ***
C002 Not Used        Not Used
C003 L_FERRITE_HF70ACB201209T`0805 Used in job ***  <-- long part name
8768 L_FERRITE_1206_MLS1206_4T4-102C1206 Used in job ***  <--screwup starts on the next line
6100 L_FERRITE_1206_MLS1206_4T4-102C1206 Used in job ***
6100 CAP_47P_COG_0603_10% Used in job ***
6101 CAP_150p_5%_0603 Used in job ***
6102 CAP_10P_50V_0603_10% Used in job ***
6103 Not Used        Not Used

I now officially have no idea what's going on - requesting an index on a channel makes some other channel index. Is that first column expecting to be UnitChannel, or something else? Banks where it is UnitChannel do seem to work OK.

OK, it's obvious. Long part names (>24 characters) cause carnage. Annoying, but work-round-able.

Mike

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2011, 02:59:29 PM »
Another thing at sometimes happens is names get truncated onscreen due to redraw/font size issues, so in some cases it can be hard to figure out which part is where if they only differ by some trailing characters

SteveW

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2011, 03:20:15 PM »
Yeah, that should possibly have been a hint, but I don't know if those boxes would be bigger on a higher res monitor. The PC attached to my machine has what seems to be the world's crappiest graphics card, tops out at 1024x768 256 colours, and I mostly drive it over vnc anyway. nothing like making like easy for myself :)
When things start working properly, and I've got these boards out, I'll investigate breaking things again. How fussy is the software about the PC hardware? I've got plenty of ISA backplanes & SBCs that would be more convenient than the nasty Celeron PC...
Also, is Win98SE as modern an OS as I can use?

Mike

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2011, 05:09:06 PM »
Also, is Win98SE as modern an OS as I can use?
Almost certainly - Win2K introduced a lot of differences in how low-level drivers work. There is a utility called DirectIO that allows older apps to talk direct to hardware- I used this to keep an old Microchip Picmaster ISA card running, but that was a very simple card and I'd be surprised if you could get both the vision and motion control working with any viable amount of effort!
At least it _does_ work on 98SE (mine originally had 95!), so you can use USB things like joypads, as long as they have W98 drivers.

phonoplug

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2011, 10:08:30 PM »
"I'd be surprised if you could get both the vision and motion control working"

I'm sure my machine has a PCI frame grab card, but I could be wrong. Will check next time I'm with it. As for the ISA Control card, its actually got a pretty simple interface, so I wouldn't be surprised if it could work, provided the DirectIO utility is pretty reliable with other ISA type cards.

As for the tape strip holder, I have got these made. Not quite the same as the one in your picture, but works well for me. Picture attached (below?)

SteveW

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2011, 11:16:38 PM »
Yeah, I'm tempted by that, and your big pocket holders for the deeper stuff. How well do those milled pegs hold tape that wants to curl up? The double sided tape on my blue one seems to solve that, and it'd be tricky to do on yours.
I do use a lot of S/M electrolytics and chunky inductors, but plan to do them manually until everything else is working perfectly.

At the moment, I'm still wrestling with the damn thing on simple components, though. How the hell are you supposed to set up the feeders? I can't see the tip when it's anywhere near the tape, on the back feeder. My fault for installing the machine in a corner, but it had to go there... I see some references to using the camera to set things up - but can't find an option to do that in my software.
Getting there, though. I can now mostly place a board, in only half a dozen tries. Some tape peel woes, some 'components just won't come out of the tape for some reason', and some 'releases the part an inch above the board' issues. When it works, it'll be great, but, at the moment, this is using valuable time that I feel I ought to be spending hand-placing some boards... Still, at least the right lanes index now, this is great progress, and the machine seems to be able to stack 5 0603s on top of each other before the stack topples. That's impressive (to me).

phonoplug

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2011, 11:30:15 PM »
The pegs work pretty well actually. Really curly tape can always be rolled round the edge of a bench to straighten it a bit first it needs be though. If using several short bits of tape, I will put some double sided tape in the groove. CPC sell a 'woven' type which comes off after really easily and its pre-cut into pads, half of which fits in the groove well.

Feeders can be a pain until you have got the hang of them. My machine is up against a wall and sort of in a corner so have similar problems setting up the far feeders, but using one of those LED torches helps. There is an button for 'camera' when you are setting up the PCB fiducials and feeders - it moves the head a bit and puts the fid camera in the head position so you can set it to (almost) the right position, then just finish it off with the actual head.

If it helps give you confidence, the last board run I did was 10 panels with a total of 3600 parts, setup and placed all in one day, and with zero feeder mis-picks. It can be done!

SteveW

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2011, 12:43:09 PM »
The 'camera' button is greyed out for me during feeder setup, is there some way to enable it? It would be exceedingly handy...
I'm definitely with you on the LED torch, without that, I'd be even more stuffed.
I've been getting decent boards out - last week was pretty successful. 3 different boards, several panels of each, probably 10K components in all, and much, much faster than hand placing them. However, this morning, the blasted thing, in the middle of a placement run, changed to the nozzle for 0805, then promptly snapped it off in a feeder lane. Whatthehell?  I've been using it all week, picking those components, admittedly out of a different bank. I wonder if this is me getting stuffed by the same problem that wipes the tapes out on bank A. Does anyone sell replacement nozzles? (my 0603 nozzle is hardly new, and a bit clog-prone, so replacements are tempting). If not, I can turn up a new one, but I'd really rather not have to. (naturally, I can't find the snapped off tip, to glue it back on. I heard it hit the floor, but it could be under almost anything)
Sigh. Another step backwards...

Anyway, any suppliers for nozzles?
Any way to turn my camera on for feeder setup?

Mike

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Re: Feeder setup - I'm confused...
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2011, 01:22:13 PM »
The 'camera' button is greyed out for me during feeder setup, is there some way to enable it? It would be exceedingly handy...
I'm definitely with you on the LED torch, without that, I'd be even more stuffed.
Don't forget the side-screens come off easily, which makes life a bit easier.
At some point I'm planning to mount a light on the head to help with this.
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However, this morning, the blasted thing, in the middle of a placement run, changed to the nozzle for 0805, then promptly snapped it off in a feeder lane. Whatthehell?
Sounds similar to this issue - http://electricstuff.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=4316b0f7961481a1aba0091f389965c3&topic=17.0 may be worth seeing if a solution was found.
Quote
Does anyone sell replacement nozzles?
davidc here has some. If anyone's handy with a lathe, I have the engineering drawings for them.
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Sigh. Another step backwards...

Budget P&P is never an easy ride  if you want 100% reliabilty call Mydata, Juki etc....
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Any way to turn my camera on for feeder setup?
There is probably an obscure setting for this somewhere - if you ask davidc nicely he might tell you.
Is it greyed for board setup as well or just feeder setup? bear in mind that there are some positions that the camera can't reach - I'm guessing the rear of a back-right feeder may be one of them. I have a feeling that nozzle-to-camera registration calibration way out in feeder-land might not be very good.