Author Topic: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question  (Read 1926 times)

pete_g

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First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« on: June 25, 2017, 10:15:18 PM »
Hi all,
I acquired two RV1s machines a few months back, and have spent the last couple of weeks clearing one or two basic faults with the electronics (blown schottky diode in the 12Vpsu, various PC problems, stepper drive wire crimped into metal backshell causing short, and half-fitted connector on one stepper driver). I now have the two machines basically running to the point where I can load a job that I found already on the hard disk, and each machine will go through the basic motions and do a tool change and look for components etc. The next step now is to generate a very simple test PCB of my own so I can just get it placing a couple of parts, and build up from there. My plan was to generate a set of Gerbers for a very simple board with two or three 0805/0603 components, and rather than make an actual PCB, just print out the top copper layer 1:1 and stick this to a sheet of aluminium, and apply double sided tape to the top. Hopefully this should work without problems?

So I realise that I need to basically acquaint myself with the RV software, which on a first read of the manual doesn't look too bad. I do though have some questions in the meantime which I'd be very grateful if anyone could chip in and shed some light on for me. So, in no particular order:

1) The actual nozzels don't seem to have any identification written on them, so how does one tell for instance the correct size nozzle for an 0805? I presume that each tool location has a number, and you then assign a tool number to each feeder lane?

2) In which part of the RV software do you teach the head the positions of the components in the feeders, and how is this done?

3) I managed to get one of my feeders to index using a pre-existing job, so I know that I can at lest drive one feeder, but when I tried to use  feedertest.exe, I couldn't get any response?

4) armtest.exe looks useful, but other than the test vacuum, test solenoid, i have no idea what the other bits do, and it isn't very intuitive - any guidance would be great. I'd like to be able to check the limit switches and anything else like that.

5) using "test solenoid" on armtest.exe prooduces a click from one machine, but not the other? What actually is the solenoid that's being tested here?

6) When you generate the place information from RS274X gerber data, which gerber files do you actually need? I use Easy-pc layout software, which generates separate files for the usual gerber layers and the drill file, but I'm unclear which of the gerber files the RV software needs to work from, eg.top copper gerber + drill data? I'd be very greatful for a bit of advice as to the best workflow recommendations here.

7) Is there an easy way to check the vision camera is working properly? I can see that the Fid camera is basically working, and I understand that I can (should?) just do a manual positioning over the fid locations anyway.

8 ) Finally, a bit of a daft quesion I suppose, but how is the RV keeping track of head position - as well as the cameras, what other sensors are there?

Ok, that's all I have for now.  Thaks to Mike and everyone here for a great forum, and also many thanks also to Chris (Spiyda) for his help so far with some of my other newbie questions which helped a lot to get the basic machines running.
Pete

phonoplug

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 11:48:40 PM »
Thats a lot of questions. Whereabouts are you? It would be a lot easier to show you through all this, programming, setting up, running a job etc. I'm just outside Oxford.

Mike

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2017, 11:58:31 PM »

1) The actual nozzels don't seem to have any identification written on them, so how does one tell for instance the correct size nozzle for an 0805? I presume that each tool location has a number, and you then assign a tool number to each feeder lane?
Top-left is tool 1, top-right is tool 5.
1 is small pointy for 0603,0805, 2 is small cylindrical for 1206,1210 etc. 3 is cylindrical with small o-ring for SO8 etc. 4 is big cylindrical with o-ring for anything bigger
5 is large cylindrical with white plastic insert. On an apparently random basis, at the start of a job  it will pick this tool and spin it in front of the camera, presumably to measure shaft runout. 
There are drawings of the tools in the hardware section
Tool number is set in the part CDF
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2) In which part of the RV software do you teach the head the positions of the components in the feeders, and how is this done?
In RV setup you tell it which feeders you are using, and in which of the standard position they are located. In RV place you set the 2 refpoints of each feeder (outer lanes) , and any biases to the pick positions in each lane, as well as heights. these are stored with the feeder .FDR file and will be retained whenever that feeder is used. Once you've set the refs, you generally only ever need to do biases, for the actual tapes loaded.
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3) I managed to get one of my feeders to index using a pre-existing job, so I know that I can at lest drive one feeder, but when I tried to use  feedertest.exe, I couldn't get any response?
feedertest seems a bit finicky sometimes, needs to have the right COM port ( one is used for feeders, one for endstop sensors), and the right feeder ID. Don't worry about this - feedertest is mostly useful for testing feeders off the machine
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4) armtest.exe looks useful, but other than the test vacuum, test solenoid, i have no idea what the other bits do, and it isn't very intuitive - any guidance would be great. I'd like to be able to check the limit switches and anything else like that.
5) using "test solenoid" on armtest.exe prooduces a click from one machine, but not the other? What actually is the solenoid that's being tested here?
Not sure - solenoid is probably the vacuum valve - it may be that on some machines this is/isn't linked to the pump control. from memory I think armtest does show the limit switch status, but again you need to have the right COM port set. I think some machines use COM ports differently as some use the PC's COM ports and some use ports on the DSP card


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6) When you generate the place information from RS274X gerber data, which gerber files do you actually need? I use Easy-pc layout software, which generates separate files for the usual gerber layers and the drill file, but I'm unclear which of the gerber files the RV software needs to work from, eg.top copper gerber + drill data? I'd be very greatful for a bit of advice as to the best workflow recommendations here.
I don't use RV gerber, but I think you probably want to use the paste layer as this will only have the info you need. The silk layer can be useful for IDing components.
I'd highly reccommend setting up a process to import a CSV of part locations & rotations, and matching up library names & rotations with your PCB SW - see my RVImport utility
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7) Is there an easy way to check the vision camera is working properly? I can see that the Fid camera is basically working, and I understand that I can (should?) just do a manual positioning over the fid locations anyway.
You can get live views in the factory setup menu. You will probably need to mess with threshold values - there are global settings in the factory setup mode, and per-part settings in the CDF
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8 ) Finally, a bit of a daft quesion I suppose, but how is the RV keeping track of head position - as well as the cameras, what other sensors are there?
It isn't. It homes to the endstop sensors when a job is first loaded or you manually reset and them assumes it never misses steps. This is generally a valid assumption unless the head hits something.
Sensors are endstops for all axes and a push-up sensor used to measure board height.


Mike

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 01:33:52 AM »
My plan was to generate a set of Gerbers for a very simple board with two or three 0805/0603 components, and rather than make an actual PCB, just print out the top copper layer 1:1 and stick this to a sheet of aluminium, and apply double sided tape to the top. Hopefully this should work without problems?
Fine, but be aware some printers may not have super-good accuracy, but good enough for experimenting with.
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but I'm unclear which of the gerber files the RV software needs to work from, eg.top copper gerber + drill data?
Why would it care about drill data ? ;-)
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I can see that the Fid camera is basically working, and I understand that I can (should?) just do a manual positioning over the fid locations anyway.
Without recent calibration (which is still under investigation) there will probably be offsets between the fid cam and nozzle, and these will vary with fid position, however these are consistent for a job, so if doing multiple panels then the fid cam is definitely worth using. For a 1-off panel, less so.
In either case start at the "nominal" fid posiitons, do a test place of the top-rightmost and bottom-leftmost parts (use  tag/omit), and tweak the fid positions by looking at the placement errors. I can generally get these bang on after 2-3 attempts, judging the offsets by eye & correcting.
e.g.
after setting up fids to nominal positions with nozzle in Setup PCB, omit all, un-omit tl/br corner parts.
Use Fid correct, manually move to centre fids in camera, and test place the two parts with DS sticky tape.
Eyeball the offsets and add to the nominal postions when re-fidding.
e.g. if BL part is 10 thou high, and TR one is 25 to left, start with fid at centre of cam, and then move it  up 10 for the , 25 to the left for the second. Repeat until test placements are OK. Note offsets on a post-it & use the same offsets for each subsequent panel.

Don't bother with the auto fid correct unless you find you never have any offsets - just move it manually and "use current position"
 
 




Mike

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 01:38:15 AM »
Another tip - there is a bug in RV place whereby the screen image of the PCB suddenly acquires an offset, so selecting parts for omit/unomit becomes difficult. Quitting RVPlace and re-running it & reloading the job fixes this, but is slow due to re-homing.
A quicker workaround is instead of quitting, load any other job, then re-load the original - this bypasses the re-homing procedure.
 

And if you've not already done so, get a joystick & set up as per pinned post. This will save you a ton of time when setting up.

pete_g

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2017, 09:03:20 PM »
Wow! Very many thanks indeed Mike, really excellent stuff & just what I needed! I think I'm starting to get a good appreciation of the RV machine now, so I should hopefully have a simple placement up and running in the next few days. Will report back as to how I get on. Will definitely order up one of those game controllers too.

Thanks again,
Pete

Gopher

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2017, 03:50:16 PM »
It's been 5 years since I moved on from one of these machines, but I always used RVGerber as that is how the training worked and in turn that is how data came to me. For RVGerber you primarily need the silkscreen layer and the paste layer, RVgerber attempts a crude form of OCR to match identifiers in your BOM against labels in the silkscreen, it then has a fairly good guess at which pads might relate to that device, or you can highlight the correct ones with the mouse. Double mouse click moves to the next device, right click dumps the part at the selected pads mid point, space rotates it 90 degrees.

So the workflow goes something like  Import Gerber->Import BOM->Scan Idents->Locate the parts->Check it all. It's a fairly slow job not helped by the rendering speed - scrolling is basically impossible. So using Mikes tool is never a bad idea it can turn a 2 hour job into a 10 minute one.

As a prior step it is probably a good idea to make sure you have predefined any "CDFs" required, these are the names and sizes/models of the various component packages you are going to use. Good practice would be to define a set of rules for part names and package names and then stick to them otherwise you can end up with the same part named slightly differently or with a different package name in different products and this actually gets quite annoying.

RVCad I'm pretty sure never worked so you can ignore it.

The training manual that comes with the machine talks you through a job start to finish, it is actually pretty good and I believe there is a copy on here somewhere...

If you have nicely defined fiducials the machine is good at recognizing, Auto-Fid correct actually works quite well, if they aren't so good however it can do some interesting things, size, colour, contrast and lighting all have an effect. Just using the crosshairs on the fid camera is not exactly a huge drawback as long as the camera calibration is OK, lining the nozzle up instead is trickier but dodges the calibration issue.

You can manually tweak placement of individual components inside RVPlace if they are not quite where you expect them to be but this tweaking is not persistent, however it is a useful thing to be able to do if for whatever reason your machine has a weird offset in a particular part of the place area.

pete_g

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 10:00:08 PM »
Hi Gopher,
Very many thanks for the extra info., sorry for my late reply as I've been away for a week or two and have not been checking the forum . I'm a little bit behind schedule, but am planning to spend a good bit of time with the RV1s over the next fortnight, so all the pointers will be very helpful indeed. Again many thanks!



pete_g

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 10:13:22 PM »
Thats a lot of questions. Whereabouts are you? It would be a lot easier to show you through all this, programming, setting up, running a job etc. I'm just outside Oxford.

Hi Phonoplug,
Somehow I managed to completely miss your post originally - very sorry about that! Thanks very much indeed for you kind offer - I'm not too far away here in Dorset. I'm going to have a really good go at getting a job up and running on the RV machines over the next fortnight, but would be very grateful if there's a chance that I could see how you set up a job on your machine if I run into a lot of problems trying to figure it all out. Sorry again for not spotting your original message. Cheers!

phonoplug

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 10:36:05 PM »
No problem just give me a shout if you want to come over. I also know of another RV user in Dorset though I'm not sure how busy he is. Maybe I can get in touch with him and see is he's interested in meeting up to exchange tips with you.

pete_g

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2017, 10:34:15 AM »
No problem just give me a shout if you want to come over. I also know of another RV user in Dorset though I'm not sure how busy he is. Maybe I can get in touch with him and see is he's interested in meeting up to exchange tips with you.

Cheers for that, many thanks! Would be great too, to hear from someone else in Dorset if you do manage to get in touch :-)

pete_g

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2017, 02:53:09 PM »
Hi folks,

Just a quick update on progress. using my dummy test PCB, made from a 1:1 printed out test file which has a  handful of parts and is glued onto an old PCB I now very nearly have the unit doing a place. For simplicity's sake, I wrote a 4-line BOM which has just 4 off 0805 resistors, and loaded up a feeder lane with a reel of 0805 10k resistors. I had some initial fun trying to work out the ordering of the reference fiducials, but eventually figured this out. I'm now at the stage where the RVwill happily correctly pick an 0805 10k from the feeder lane, take it to the camera, and then complain of an incorrect size component and ditch it before attempting to place. I've been through the forum and have read the posts on RV vision failure, but I think that before I try any of the fixes in terms of image parameters (it actually seems to be imaging the parts ok from what I can tell - eg. it was reporting x=50, y=75 on the 0805 parts when placing / failing), I think my problem could be down to how the component rotation is specified in my job files. I'm only using the CFD file for an 0805 part (called R0805 on my hard disk) and all of these are the original files from the machines hard disk (so not modified by me, but could have been edited by the previous owner). The strange thing is that all of the SMT resistor files when displayed in the editor screen show the part oriented with the longest dimension vertically on the screen, but the R0805 part for some reason has the white box at right-angles to the body of the part, and the pin one identifer looks to be on the LHS which is wrong. So, I think that my problem may lie here rather than in the image parameters? I'm not sure why the R0805 footprint should be different than all the rest, and havent figured out how I can edit this? Any pointers would be great - I've attached a picture of the R0805 part on the CDF editor screen so hopefully you can see what I mean.
Many thanks!

Mike

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2017, 07:45:44 PM »
The "natural" i.e. zero rotation of a part is as it sits in a right-hand feeder, i.e. tape horizontal, holes towards you.
Therefore chip parts in the CDF will have a larger Y dimension than X dim.
Rotations in your data should make no difference to vision, as the vision happens before any rotation.
If you enter the measured dims shown after a vision attempt in the CDF for that part it should vision correctly. These are often different from nominal mechanical dims.

You often need to mess with threshold offset to get a clean image ( offsets can be positive or negative, adjust in steps of 5-10) , and note that part height also matters as this sets the distance it holds the part from the camera for best focus.

pete_g

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2017, 06:54:42 PM »
Many thanks Mike for the pointers; will have another look tonight and see if I can get to the bottom of it.

pete_g

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Re: First setup of my new RV1s - and a few general question
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2017, 09:57:56 PM »
Ha! Success!! Tonight I managed to place the four 0805 resistors onto my very simple test "printed-out" PCB (double-sided tape placed at the locations to hold the parts). Working with Mike's suggestions, I had a play with the camera threshold value, and reduced this to 60 from 90, which seemed to give a good component outline. I was rather nervous about touching anything other than the threshold box in the calibration screen, and to avoid messing anything up, I held an 0805 at the approximate correct height with tweezers in the cameras field of of view, and just changed the threshold value and touched nothing else, toggling between the camera picture and the graphical outline (there's probably a correct formal way to do this - I need to have a thorough scan through the pdfs and posts ..)

Testing placement after this seemed to get very good repeatable dimension values from the 0805 imaging, but it was still complaining that the parts were the wrong size. Looking at the CDF files for the R0805 components, it became apparent that the dimensions looked very different in terms of both body size and lead parameters from any of the other SMT package parts of a similar shape, eg 0603 etc. . To remedy this, at first I though I'd be able to quickly figure out what each of the various dimension boxes relate to in the "lead editor screen", but it wasn't clear how these inter-relate, so I opted to go with the "quick" dimensions check-box instead of using the drawn shape. Manually entering the same X & Y dimensions as reported by the imaging resulted in each of the four parts being successfully placed, although they were placed with a 90 degree rotation (that I erroneously have  specified in one of the earlier files), and I wasn't sure if/how to fix this at the job file stage (I'm sure that's an easy one I can figure out).

The placements, although at 90 degrees to the pads, were near perfect closest to the bottom RH fiducial, but seemed to drift ever so slightly for the components towards the LHS of the board. I need to study again how to accurately set the board fiducial references, as I think that it was only picking up on one of the two fiducials that I'd previously set ( the process for setting  REF1 and REF 2 still seems confusing to me, & it seemed that only one of the two REF positions had  been stored? ... this is an area which I need to spend some time re-reading the documentation and going over the forum posts again). Incidentally, I should mention that the placing tonight was done without doing any re-aligning ie. I just loaded the job file and hit place, so the machine was using the fiducial reference & pick position that I set on Saturday morning without any new re-alignment.

So far, throughout the time I've spent with the RV both the machine and the software have been very stable. Achieving the first placements really is quite a special moment, as you begin to realise the potential that having your own pick & place actually gives you! Very many thanks to everyone so far for their help, and especially to Mike for running such a great forum, and Gary at Grove Sales, who supplied the machines,  - highly recommended!