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RV Software / Re: Setting fiducial positions i.e. board alignment
« Last post by phonoplug on Today at 09:10:01 PM »
Sorry to chip in late about a comment that was already slightly off topic! but I wanted to make a point or two very clear...

Ah interesting re Intelligent Drives - I see ID is run by 'Neil Buck, Software Developer' rather than David Clements. I spy 'VivoSMT' on some of their images.

DC was never employed by, nor had any stake in ID. The company was founded by NB. DC was just an independent distributor for a couple of years at the beginning. DC owned the VivoSMT brand and the machines were branded with stickers as such at the time. They were however ID machines behind the odd sticker - designed and 100% built in house, in the UK, by ID.


Aaahh, just wanted to be clear about that!
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RV Software / Re: Setting fiducial positions i.e. board alignment
« Last post by Gopher on Today at 08:31:14 AM »
I would agree, unless they stumble on a cheap TWS/DDM these Chinese machines are getting there. I don't understand the people who were happy with the early versions ~5-6 years ago which appeared to be very poor and just expensive toys rather than useful tools. For in-house work in micro-businesses you likely only need the machine to do the donkey work and maybe a few of the complicated parts. Start scaling above that tho' and it is important to realize how quickly placement requirements can grow in both complexity and quantity, at that point always buy more than you think you need.
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RV Software / Re: Setting fiducial positions i.e. board alignment
« Last post by Mike on August 15, 2018, 09:18:15 PM »
I think nowadays anyone looking to upgrade from an RV for in-house work ( as opposed to full-time subcontract work) should probably be looking seriously at the various Chinese machines, some of which look close to being pretty good, albeit with generally terrible software. Most of them seem to have given up trying to design feeders and are using Yamaha/clones. Apart from Neoden, who by all reports really should do as theirs are pretty poor.
There is work being done on supporting some Chinese machines with OpenPnP.
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RV Software / Re: Setting fiducial positions i.e. board alignment
« Last post by Gopher on August 14, 2018, 01:54:23 PM »
Who can say, I think quite a few of the RasPi support industry startups went ID, at least one of which went Europlacer after that, no idea what those people did with their ID machines - in a corner for NPI/Dev perhaps? The only existing Vivo customer I was put in contact with at the time, was having a less than stellar experience which I thought made them a somewhat interesting choice but there we go.
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RV Software / Re: Setting fiducial positions i.e. board alignment
« Last post by alanambrose on August 14, 2018, 01:34:19 PM »
Ah interesting re Intelligent Drives - I bought some Versatronics feeders from them recently and didn't even clock that they were a P&P vendor. I see ID is run by 'Neil Buck, Software Developer' rather than David Clements. I spy 'VivoSMT' on some of their images. Maybe the ghost of Versatronics still lives :)
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RV Software / Re: Setting fiducial positions i.e. board alignment
« Last post by Gopher on August 14, 2018, 01:05:22 PM »


OK now I have to ask, what was the 'next machine' :)


We stayed non-conveyored and moved up to an Essemtec Paraquda  (for feeder capacity over the smaller models they had at the time), quite a significant step, skipping over machines from Autotronik/Novastar because we didn't like their machines or answers to what support and maintenance looked like. Also skipped over Dima which was a similar speed machine, however seeing as Dima later became part of Nordson and ditched placement entirely.. bullet dodged methinks. At the time however, had we discovered the Intelligent drives machine without Vivo written on it.. could have gone that way.

Currently lazily planning the next one... which way it will go depends a bit on the type of work we see coming out way, 6kcph is as fast as I would go without a conveyored line when doing any kind of volume. Current trends were seeing indicate a fondness among engineers for very high BOM line count requiring many feeders, which potentially pushes us towards 2 conventional machines from Yamaha/Samsung/etc or something vast like a europlacer iineo (which we almost chose last time).

From memory the least accurate area of our machine in later life was the top right corner where you would typically locate the PCB, which makes sense.
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RV Software / Re: Setting fiducial positions i.e. board alignment
« Last post by alanambrose on August 14, 2018, 10:27:49 AM »
Thanks guys for the responses:

>>> You should be using tool 2 for 1206. turning off "merge moves" can sometimes help.

Yes I am using Tool 2 and I'm running on slow speed and have turned off merge moves. Is there a way to figure out whether the parts move on the nozzle - I've tried the slo-mo camera on my phone but without much success so far as I can't manually pan the camera fast enough to capture the nozzle action?

>>> Your "top-right" isn't as bad as I've seen my machine do sometimes, even when set up well

Interesting - I don't quite understand why as when I did a quick and dirty test with a dial indicator it looked like the machine could step 1 mil fairly reliably. I know that doesn't make for overall accuracy but still.

>>> One thing you could check is the condition of the belts

Ah thanks - didn't think of that - quite possible.

>>> something the next machine found very easy

OK now I have to ask, what was the 'next machine' :)

>>> is simply to try moving the PCB to a different place on the bed. I've seen this reduce big fid offsets in the past

Hmmm, oh dear, does this mean we really have to figure the calibration at some point?


FYI I was thinking about the problem and came to the conclusion that maybe the machine is only figuring an X, Y, R adjustment from the two fids. That would be consistent with some of the GUI and much simpler than figuring out a general transformation from theoretical position to actual position. To make two fids fit exactly it would need to include some magnification factor. If my theory is right, that means that the 1st fid gives say an X, Y adjustment and the 2nd just contributes the R. It would also mean both fids could not be fit exactly.

With this though in mind, I kind of averaged the fid adjustments, rather than fitting the 1st fid exactly - if that makes any sense. That made the overall adjustment a bit more sensible.

Alan
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RV Software / Re: Setting fiducial positions i.e. board alignment
« Last post by Mike on August 09, 2018, 10:25:50 PM »
The other, easier, approach to possible inconsistency due to worn belts, is simply to try moving the PCB to a different place on the bed. I've seen this reduce big fid offsets in the past
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RV Software / Re: Setting fiducial positions i.e. board alignment
« Last post by Gopher on August 09, 2018, 01:53:10 PM »
One thing you could check is the condition of the belts, if there is a worn area that could show up as inconsistent placement in some parts of the placement area. Probably not something you want to tinker with unless you have some scheduled not that busy time tho'.
Back in the days when we had an RV and it was still new, accuracy really wasn't all that bad, we build boards with biggish QFPs and lots of 0603 fairly reliably, you'd still need to inspect and possibly tweak the QFP before reflow but you could be pretty confident everything else was exactly where you wanted it to be. That was less true 10 years later when we encountered things like 0.5mm pitch 5mm QFNs (almost all needed tweaking), something the next machine found very easy, as indeed should any machine with linear encoders & decent drive control from the last 10 years.
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For Sale/Wanted, Suppliers / RV Vibratory feeders
« Last post by Gazza on August 09, 2018, 01:17:42 PM »
Hi

We are clearing out RV vib feeders etc, have 4 banks  available  2 are double tier versions.

Double Tier £40 each

Single Tier  £30 each

Delivery £15


delivery may vary for more than 2 banks

Have some lane end blocks which will fit the double tier fdr which has them missing.

Also available feeder link cables  at  £7 each.

7 x short

20 x medium

3 x  long  pc to feeder plus loop thru

Call Gary  01202 588907

Email gary@grovesales.co.uk

All prices plus vat

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