Mike's Forums

Versatronics RV series Pick & Place machines => RV Hardware => Topic started by: fcb on April 06, 2011, 07:14:15 PM

Title: IC stick feeders?
Post by: fcb on April 06, 2011, 07:14:15 PM
Hi All,

Thanks for the help/comments/suggestions so far regarding issues with tape feeders. I'm now beginning to think about IC tube feeders, and would (again) like to hear about peoples experiences/preferences/suggestions with stick feeders.  I have Versatronics vibratory feeders myself, but really not a fan of these (although they DO work).

Other ideas are possibly belt feed or air driven or air/plunger driven. Not sure I like these any more than vibro.

Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: Mike on April 06, 2011, 07:51:18 PM
The nice thing about vibration is it's simple, and a single feeder can do a bunch of tubes - the trick is getting the 'exit' area right so a chip gets to a consistent position without pile-ups. The RV ones are pretty hopeless.
A non-optimal exit zone can be useable by tweaking the vibration level, but this is a problem if different lanes need different amounts of shake. Maybe a way to adjust vibration level per-part might be useful, as well as stopping the vib when not using the feeder.
You certainly want to be able to load a bunch of tubes of the same part - not sure if the RV software supports this.

Never seen air-puff in action but I suspect it may have consistency problems, not to mention higher cost/complexity - I can see more downsides than upsides compared to vibs.
 
Bear in mind that there are a lot of different shapes/sizes of tubed parts.
I know many subcontractors won't use tubes on machines and always re-tape, but not sure to what extent this is for better picking or fewer downtime reloading.

 
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: davidc on April 06, 2011, 10:16:19 PM
hi Mike the Rv does support multiples of the same device in the vibe feeder and in the reels too. if one lane runs out it will pick frm an alternative lane.

in reality the vibe on the RV works very well…. more complex options are just that more complex and more expensive yet not really that much better. ::)   belt drive is probably the way forward but then again air is good provided its well metered, also you can just get them in tape .  or pick them up loose too..
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: Gopher on April 06, 2011, 10:33:57 PM
Yeah as Mike says Vib probably works just fine if the exit/landing area is just right, a common solution seems to be a specially machined bit that clips on the end, essemtec and I think Dima seem to have a catalogue of these, There shouldn't need to be too many tho' while there are a whole raft of weird shapes out there its the common ones people are going to want to be the most hassle free.
As I build up a portfolio of machines to get quotes on I am pretty much resigned to including a stick feeder in there but had I the luxury I wouldn't have one at all.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: Mike on April 06, 2011, 10:39:48 PM
in reality the vibe on the RV works very well….
Once you get the end of the tueb hacked correctly, yes, but the shapes milled into the plate aren't much use. The biggest thing you need is an adjustable endstop - this would cope all lengths of SO's at least. The optimum would probably be some sort of channel where both the width and endstop were adjustable.
Quote
The Rv does support multiples of the same device in the vibe feeder and in the reels too. if one lane runs out it will pick frm an alternative lane.
ISTR you mentioning this a while ago before I was familiar with the software, but how do you actually set this up? When you allocate a part to a feeder, it's no longer available to allocate to a second one.
 
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: Gopher on April 06, 2011, 10:43:08 PM
I wondered that too ;), but then I just tip more in the back of the tube and that works for me.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: davidc on April 06, 2011, 10:45:12 PM
hi.. right everyone..

what you do is load all the parts in RVsetup. so they are allocated. then you remove the feeders from the allocated area.. so the parts become available to load again. then you load alternative feeders and allocate the parts again,  this  means the part number is loaded in to multiple feeders. you the double click those feeder from the list and you have the part in 2 locations!

with  a single feeder you just copy the lane from one position to another… simples!
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: Gopher on April 06, 2011, 10:51:16 PM
Doh, damn those meerkats! Bet that was in the training session all those years ago too.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: davidc on April 06, 2011, 10:54:18 PM
it was but no one ever listened.. so we have learnt from that. :)

With the VIVO we do  a lot of it online and its all saved in AVI files. so you cant forget.

today we got a customer running with a PCB with no FIds on it.  All done over the net… technology is so good.


VIVO... :)
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: Gopher on April 06, 2011, 11:08:35 PM
Oh I listened but its hard to listen and take notes, for instance I have an incomprehensible set of scrawl about the calibration menu...
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: davidc on April 06, 2011, 11:13:01 PM
if you guys want i will do a training /questions day £100 a head.. anything you want to know.. list of suppliers how too… you tell me what you want to know. We can do it at our place in aylesbury.

its up to you.  this is a one time offer.  We have so much VIVO stuff going on..but i don't want to leave people behind..
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: Gopher on April 06, 2011, 11:14:56 PM
Shhhhhh someone will see that, machine no worky = new one.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: davidc on April 06, 2011, 11:25:57 PM
i know, but i have worked hard in this business for years and i am not going to change the way i do it now.

We have always tried to do our best and give value for money. So if anyone wants help then commercially we are happy to do it.

its easy to have a pop at some one due to the car they drive ( you know who you are)  but i have stood by every single customer i have supplied a machine too.. perhaps thats why so many of them are investing in the VIVO..  :) And whats nice is that there is a lot of loyalty in the industry but its not blinkered.. there is a company in the midlands who when their machine was playing up went and looked at the lot… they are now running a Vivo 396…the machine stands on its on merits.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: Mike on April 06, 2011, 11:27:05 PM
it was but no one ever listened.. so we have learnt from that. :)

With the VIVO we do  a lot of it online and its all saved in AVI files. so you cant forget.
  All done over the net… technology is so good.

Making training videos available might be a useful sales tool - if people can see how easy the machine is to use they may become more interested.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: fcb on April 06, 2011, 11:29:32 PM
Thanks so far. I guess (like so many things) there is no magic bullet or perfect solution.  I'm not certain that the (majority) type of customer I envisage for this machine will be prepared to have sticks of IC's T&R'd, I've personally never thought of getting some of my sticks T&R'd, I just don't use enough.

So I guess the tried/tested vibratory feeder is the thing.  As we only have DC available then we will synthesize any drive signal for a vibrator so freq/amplitude and perhaps even waveshape would be easily adjustable via the main menu, so we could certainly 'optimise' things for an IC.  Adjustable end-stops per lane do-able, although width would be a tough ask.

Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: davidc on April 06, 2011, 11:33:28 PM
we have a you tube site in progress.

it will show all the "how to's" so those who are interested will see " how to" before they buy..

Our typical training requirement  on the VIVO lasts 1 day… Go compare..

Lower cost of implemention, introduction and ownership…

the 20 years of experience in SMT production equipment is rather handy sometimes..
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: davidc on April 06, 2011, 11:38:13 PM
So I guess the tried/tested vibratory feeder is the thing.  As we only have DC available then we will synthesize any drive signal for a vibrator so freq/amplitude and perhaps even waveshape would be easily adjustable via the main menu, so we could certainly 'optimise' things for an IC.

if it plays the Dr Who theme while it does it, it will be perfect! ;) Perhaps some funky sounds as it slides down the tube? ;D
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: Gopher on April 06, 2011, 11:39:08 PM
Not owning a 24mm feeder I currently go the other way, out of tape and into tube, not funny when theres 1800 a time.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: fcb on April 06, 2011, 11:41:54 PM
Yeah why not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JPBdBIFGNQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JPBdBIFGNQ)

Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: davidc on April 06, 2011, 11:42:12 PM
thats my point… the prices of feeders are excessive…

we recently put a proposal forward for a client who needs to place larger parts…. the smile on his face was priceless. :) So we gave him a feeder for free.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: Mike on April 06, 2011, 11:54:37 PM
So I guess the tried/tested vibratory feeder is the thing.  As we only have DC available then we will synthesize any drive signal for a vibrator so freq/amplitude and perhaps even waveshape would be easily adjustable via the main menu, so we could certainly 'optimise' things for an IC.
Once you have the shape right I'm not sure you'd need anything more than amplitude adjustment. How about a DC motor with offset weight?
Quote
Adjustable end-stops per lane do-able, although width would be a tough ask.
Agreed - endstop is much more useful - with endstop adjust you could easily cover all length  variants of a given width - two widths would cover a high proportion of SO's - for a multi-lane vib it would be reasonable to maybe have a mix of widths. As wear wouldn't be a big issue, maybe widths could be done with some interchangeable lasercut acrylic inserts that you supply a selection of - the user could file down specials as required.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: davidc on April 06, 2011, 11:58:47 PM
The VIVO vibe feeders accept any…thats right any tube… or you can redesign the wheel of course…. :)
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: fcb on April 07, 2011, 12:03:29 AM
DC motors, with weights, hmmm - worth thinking about.  Pager vibrator motors seem to be plentiful? Perhaps one per tube.

I don't like the idea of getting a consistent supply of those though, but food for thought though.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: fcb on April 07, 2011, 12:08:20 AM
Agreed - endstop is much more useful - with endstop adjust you could easily cover all length variants of a given width - two widths would cover a high proportion of SO's - for a multi-lane vib it would be reasonable to maybe have a mix of widths. As wear wouldn't be a big issue, maybe widths could be done with some interchangeable lasercut acrylic inserts that you supply a selection of - the user could file down specials as required.
That's also a pretty good idea - I guess it would have to anti-static acrylic though.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: Mike on April 07, 2011, 12:13:52 AM
Agreed - endstop is much more useful - with endstop adjust you could easily cover all length variants of a given width - two widths would cover a high proportion of SO's - for a multi-lane vib it would be reasonable to maybe have a mix of widths. As wear wouldn't be a big issue, maybe widths could be done with some interchangeable lasercut acrylic inserts that you supply a selection of - the user could file down specials as required.
That's also a pretty good idea - I guess it would have to anti-static acrylic though.
I can't see that being a problem - acrylic on a metal plate with a chip shimmying along it is hardly going to build up a noticeable charge,  remember the D in ESD - you need current flow between pins, and even if a chip managed  to get significantly charged, you wouldn't get a discharge between pins during the placement process.
Title: Re: IC stick feeders?
Post by: davidc on April 07, 2011, 12:15:28 AM
Mike you would know.. with all those voltages flowing round your place!! Van Der Graff eat your heart out!