Anyone successfully picked large components from tape? Ones that a) need more than one index, and b) need to be visioned in more than one position because of their size?
I've got some connectors on 24mm tape, but it just doesn't work. It doesn't do the usual index as soon as the part is picked, and once visioned it gives a single index regardless of what the setting for 'number of indexes' is set to, and regardless of whether it visions OK or not. I have proven that its not due to the feeder itself, nor the bay the feeder is in, so am pretty confident its the PC application and yet another bug, but does anyone else have experience of this? Has anyone been able to feed these size parts OK? It seems like a pretty fundamental bug that makes a 24mm feeder only usable for a small proportion of the parts it *could* feed.
Also, I need a setting of 4 indexes for one of these parts. I know there are bugs where setting the number of indexes in certain screens does not get saved, but no matter where I set it to be 4 indexes it absolutely doesn't save it - when you go back to look its no longer 4 indexes again. Anyone successfully used a setting of 4 indexes?
Advice much appreciated, before the 24mm feeder goes out the window!
Lol, well sadly I have no 24mm feeder.... if you could arrange for me to be standing under the window when you throw it that would suit me fine.
However I recently ran into a weird indexing issue with a 2 index 12mm part that has been working just fine when in a feeder on the left rear as it had been for years (because the feeder is crap and no good for much else). However when I put it in a different feeder in the front right instead the indexing stopped happening and it also stopped seeing it with the camera, weirdly despite not seeing it, it continued to place them anyway. Strictly speaking of course it placed 1/2 of them because it went pick miss pick miss! Soemetimes I want to throw this whole machine out of the window :D.
So long story short, what if you move the feeder?
Hello again!
I know whats happening in your case (not mine still though >:( )
You have moved your feeder very close to the camera, and the part position on the PCB must also be pretty close to the camera. It is actually indexing twice, once when its picked and once when its about to place the part. However, because the arm hasn't needed to move a great deal from pick to place so its been pretty quick, the feeder hasn't completed the first index by the time its sent the second index command. In great style, it completely ignores the new index command as its still carrying out the previous index, and someone bright spark didn't think to buffer the index commands on the feeder controller board!
Try moving the feeder a bit further away from the camera, or putting the board a bit further from the camera. Alternatively if you increase the vision time that could fix it too. It was one of the first things I came up against - the first job I ran on my machine had 48x SOT-223 MOSFETs on it so I put the 12mm feeder with them on closest to the camera to optimise it. Oddly the first few on each board didn't index correctly, yet those placed further away from the camera indexed correctly. It was the first (of several things) that prompted me to do a new controller board!
On the camera thing I've seen that happen too. Nothing flashes up on screen but it still places ok. I think its yet another bug, perhaps related to the one when the whole display of the board it displaced/scrambled/missing. I think you can make it happen if you go to another window then come back to the RV Place window (without closing and re-opening RV Place)
Yes i remember you fixing that with yur custom feeder boards, thing is the lane next to it was also double index, in similar numbers with similar cdf delay & movement parameters which was somewhat throwing me, it was quickest just to move the component to my manual pick phase just to get the job finished.
Seem to have got to the bottom of it. Apparently the indexes just don't work if the part has to be visioned in more than one image. When the machine was built there were very few things on 24mm tape and very few of the 24mm feeders sold. I guess testing wasn't as thorough as it could have been... The PC application will only send one index command in this situation, regardless of the 'number of indexes' setting. And it sends the index command later than normal - after the vision rather than immediately after its picked.
It is definitely related to the requirement for multi-image vision. If the component is small enough to be visioned with a single image all works fine. It has now occurred to me that there is the same issue with trays or cut tape etc on the machine bed. If the part is large enough to need to be visioned in more than one image, it will always return to the same pocket to pick the next component, even though it should know its empty. I came across this a while back with HC49-SM crystals, and can now see the connection. So, it seems the only place you can use larger parts where multi-image vision is used, is the vib feeders.
Not so much help for me though as I have 3 different connectors on 24mm tape used on a board. The only other way round it is to modify the feeder's firmware so that when its sent the single index command, it actually indexes the required number of times (in my case 3 or 4). I have used the spare 5 dip switches on the back (3 used for feeder location A-H) to select different combinations of indexes for each lane. Fingers crossed this will work reliably for the run of boards I'm about to do... :-\
Quote from: phonoplug on April 03, 2011, 01:01:00 PM
It is definitely related to the requirement for multi-image vision. If the component is small enough to be visioned with a single image all works fine. It has now occurred to me that there is the same issue with trays or cut tape etc on the machine bed. If the part is large enough to need to be visioned in more than one image, it will always return to the same pocket to pick the next component, even though it should know its empty.
That can't be the whole story-I've picked QFPs from trays successfully-you can see it at the he end of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/user/mikeselectricstuff#p/u/8/ltQXQ9YrFlM
It ought to be fairly easy to fix this and other feeder issues with a utility that intercepts the COM port traffic and tweaks the timing accordingly-maybe I'll get round to it one day...
How bizarre. There's definitely something odd here.
Does your PC software have a version number(s) anywhere? I wonder if I have an older version.
don't have it to hand but in the past I've found after messing about a lot, some wierdnesses persist until the job is re-created, so it's possible that something went strange when you were messing with feeders.
As you mentioned connectors I wonder if there may be issues with parts that are too big only in one dimension?
Hi Phonoplug
Have you tried creating a new feeder based on the device you are trying to pick?
I am thinking you are making changes after the default setting have been set as it were.
I tend to create feeders for every job I run and I have never ever run into a feeder picking
problems and I place conns and other large devices which need 4 Index's and a four vision
cycle to place.
I always load large devices top left of the machine and Vib bottom right all 8s and 12s on the
right and 16mm and above on the left.
Good luck
Quote from: phonoplug on April 03, 2011, 04:05:38 PM
How bizarre. There's definitely something odd here.
Does your PC software have a version number(s) anywhere? I wonder if I have an older version.
RV Place 3.1 31/01/00
RV Place window title : RV Place v3.5
Help->about-> Version 3.1
File dates same as Mike.
Machine install would have been something like Q1 2002 making it one of the last few I think.
If mikes machine doesnt exhibt the same issue the only file worth getting hold of is the Place.dll. that maybe a differnt version. there where changes to that along the way. its not machine specific so can be copied and tried.
Place.dll here is 268KB with a date of 12/09/01 ....
Software here is ver. 3.5
Never had a problem with large or unusual size/shape components, 4 index works fine.
Try creating feeders specific to your part and save the base feeder file as well as the made up feeder.
Place.dll on all three of my machines is 268K dated 12/09/01
Wow thanks for all the replies. Managed to get the feeder to multiply the feed commands by 3 in the feeder firmware and it worked fine first day. Second day it didn't work again and I changed nothing! I suspect the PC is sending out a wrong index command going by the symptoms, but my next step will be to 'sniff' out the data sent out from the PC to see what its sending.
Fortunately I've got that run of boards complete now so when I get a bit of time next week I'll investiagate more.
Thanks for all the info on the dll version. Any chance you guys could possibly find out the exact dll version embedded in it? You should be able to right click on the file and there should be a 'version' tab or something similar. I'll see what mine is. I hope its really something simple like that! Its been frustrating the hell out of me!
Phono.. email me.. ill let you have all the versions i have
Mine is 1774K 22/12/99, from the original install package I got from Davidc but I just noticed the 268K version and a later RV Gerber outside the package.
Hi Phonoplug, How did you go about changing the Feeders Firmware? where can this be done? Any help much Appreciated.
Ah the firmware I changed was for the replacement feeder control board I've done.
Don't have the source code for the original boards. Have dis-assembled the code in the EEPROM, but there's quite a lot and its written for an 8031 which is somewhat dated now to say the least!
I use my own boards in all the larger lane feeders I use now. I set the number of indexes to 1 in RVplace, and use the spare dip switches on the feeder to select the appropriate number of multiple indexed needed. It does them all in one go so is a lot quicker overall, reducing placement time for boards with a lot of larger parts. For example the board I was building yesterday has 42 off 6x6 electrolytic caps on it, each 3 index. Probably saves a few minutes a board. Also means recovering from mis-picks is much quicker (not re-trying one index at a time).
I can supply new feeder control boards with multi-index firmware to suit the feeder its going into.
Google "versatronics rv spares" and the pdf at the top shows all the spare parts I supply.