Mike's Forums

Versatronics RV series Pick & Place machines => RV Hardware => Topic started by: alanambrose on November 10, 2017, 09:38:15 AM

Title: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on November 10, 2017, 09:38:15 AM
Ah interesting, OK I'll figure out how much I can increase the stop by and put it up on here. BTW here's the 1st quote I got for the acetal part of the conical nozzles. Actually these can be black acetal, black nylon, or black 30% glass filled nylon (I remember somebody suggested that) for roughly the same price. Actually there's a warning on the GF stuff that it may warp afterwards.

Alan

Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Jason on November 19, 2017, 09:45:06 PM
As I seemed to miss the last batch of nozzles, I could be interested.
Which size would you have done? I'd take a couple of the each of the two smallest.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on November 22, 2017, 02:27:27 PM
Hey Jason, sure no problem.

I'll wait a bit before sending an order in to see who else is interested. The Tool 6 / 0402 / 0.4mm nozzle and the Tool 1 / 0603 / 0.6mm nozzle are the same except for the actual nozzle hole so it would seem to make sense to get a bunch of the Tool 6 ones and then just drill out to 0.6mm for Tool 1.

I'm also getting some test 3D prints done by Shapeways (i.e. better quality than home 3D print) in 'Nylon' and two other materials. The plastic bit seems to be coming in at £6-7 (plus VAT shipping etc) in single units. If anyone here is actively using their RVxS right now and therefore can give a more informed opinion than me, let me know and I'll send some along. They won't be here for a coupla weeks yet. You'll need to have some spare brass bushes.

On the subject of bushes, I think it should be fairly easy to make them out of 12mm OD x 1.5 wall brass tube (e.g. BT12/15 from http://www.metalsmith.co.uk/metals-materials.htm (http://www.metalsmith.co.uk/metals-materials.htm)) but I'm sure there's a better machinist here than me who can comment?

Finally my tool / drawing / o-ring spreadsheet fyi: http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/RVxS Tools.xlsx (http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/RVxS%20Tools.xlsx). Which brings up two questions - what is the bush with o-rings RVT07 for? And why does the camera tool have an o-ring?

Alan
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Jason on November 22, 2017, 06:34:20 PM
The camera tool can also be used to pickup.
I'd forgotten about tool 6. If we drill them out I'd probably take 3x type1/6 and 1x type2

I produced a number of brass inserts previously. I could possibly do some more but I
too am not a machinist. (although my current type 2 is turned up from Acetal at home).
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Mike on November 27, 2017, 12:52:49 AM
I've just sorted out a couple of machines for Dave & Trevor, and they will definitely need nozzles so I'm sure they'll be along soon to add to the order.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Mike on November 27, 2017, 12:54:22 AM
Quote from: alanambrose on November 10, 2017, 09:38:15 AM
Ah interesting, OK I'll figure out how much I can increase the stop by and put it up on here. BTW here's the 1st quote I got for the acetal part of the conical nozzles. Actually these can be black acetal, black nylon, or black 30% glass filled nylon (I remember somebody suggested that) for roughly the same price. Actually there's a warning on the GF stuff that it may warp afterwards.

Alan


bear in mind that the nozzle is the background for vision, so the surface colour and finish can be significant, though sanding/marker pen afterwards may be options
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: trev on November 27, 2017, 01:38:29 PM
Hi all.

As Mike said I will be needing nozzles. Not completely sure what I need but I have been told nozzle 5 is used to calibrate the camera and so needs the white insert in it? Maybe this has already been discussed?

What nozzles are being made?

Trev

Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on November 27, 2017, 04:45:59 PM
Hi,

OK - in the 1st instance I've ordered some 3d-printed nozzles (professional prints not consumer-level prints) for tool 1, 2 and 6. These promise to be cheap - if they work OK that is. I'll need to make or buy some brass inserts and probably drill out the nozzle hole to the right size. Actually I was just thinking this morning that the brass insert may be overkill and that, in future, they might just be plastic all through if the prints are smooth enough - which they may well not be. If this approach works, and it may well not, it would be pretty easy to make the plastic bits of all the nozzles - the camera cal one would be harder though.

Alan
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on December 04, 2017, 05:38:14 PM
OK here are the first prints:

http://www.anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/Premium%20nylon%201.jpeg (http://www.anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/Premium%20nylon%201.jpeg)

http://www.anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/Various%20materials%201.jpeg (http://www.anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/Various%20materials%201.jpeg)

- there are a few materials left to try but those were my best guesses.

On first look:
+ they dimensions are fairly accurate and spare brass bushes just push in nicely,
+ the detail is not as good as real machined ones - I was hoping it would be a little better,
+ the nozzles need drilling out - I guess I knew this up front
+ the tips of the nozzles may need some gentle smoothing,
+ they seem strong enough, but maybe not as strong as machined acetal.

I'll see if I can find my dodgy usb microscope tomorrow and post some more detailed images. Base cost (w/o shipping & taxes) varies from $3 to $8 p.u. depending on materials.

A.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Mike on December 04, 2017, 08:59:18 PM
Will be interesting to see how well they take the stresses of loading and unloading.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on December 05, 2017, 01:03:53 AM
I've run plenty of boards with acetal ones glued together with cheapo superglue, even as soon as ten minutes after glueing !     I don't think they need to be as strong as you might think, all the force is along the axis (until something goes wrong, and in fault conditions, you want the nozzle to fail before anything it hits)

As far as the smoothness is concerned, as long as the camera sees it it as black, I don't think that will be a problem either.  a lot of the nozzle is out of focus so printing lines probably wouldn't show up..

I'd definitely be interested in some of the smaller sizes..

I have some brass tube that could be turned down, but I couldn't find any that was exactly the same both internally and externally..   my lathe is a bit on the big side for machining more than a few..    I tended to re-use the inserts from broken nozzles in the nozzles I turned...
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on December 07, 2017, 04:26:28 PM
Ah eventually found the dodgy usb scope:

http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/print%20vs%20original%20detail%201.png (http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/print%20vs%20original%20detail%201.png)

http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/print%20detail%20nozzle%201.png (http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/print%20detail%20nozzle%201.png)

Real one on the left, 3D print on the right. I deliberately put some tiny fillets on to make it go in and out of the rack easier. Have ordered some tiny drills...

>>> As far as the smoothness is concerned, as long as the camera sees it it as black, I don't think that will be a problem either.

It was the smoothness at the end of the nozzle I was bothered about, will try some v fine wet and dry.

>>> I have some brass tube that could be turned down, but I couldn't find any that was exactly the same both internally and externally..

Something like this may do it, by my calcs 0.2mm oversize on the OD and 0.2mm undersize on the ID:

http://www.tubestore.co.uk/ourshop/prod_2038041-127mm-12-Dia-x-250mm-Unpolished-Brass-Tube.html (http://www.tubestore.co.uk/ourshop/prod_2038041-127mm-12-Dia-x-250mm-Unpolished-Brass-Tube.html)

may just fit anyway, 0.2mm isn't much .... or this, 1mm undersize on the ID:

https://www.metals4u.co.uk/brass/c2/tube/c30/12.7mm-x-1.6mm-(12-x-16swg)/p13496 (https://www.metals4u.co.uk/brass/c2/tube/c30/12.7mm-x-1.6mm-(12-x-16swg)/p13496)

Alan
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on December 09, 2017, 12:38:31 PM
What is critical is the runout between the inside of the brass insert and the nozzle tip...
It might be fine, but it might be that for the smallest sizes, a final skim of the tip and drill the hole on a lathe is needed after the brass insert is fitted.


Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on December 12, 2017, 06:25:07 PM
>>> What is critical is the runout between the inside of the brass insert and the nozzle tip...

Ah yes, I see what you mean.

>>> drill the hole on a lathe

You obviously haven't seen the dodgy Clarke lathe we have here :)

I have the drilling stuff and the tube now, so when I get a spare minute...
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on December 14, 2017, 05:48:23 PM
Hmm, I had a go at making some brass inserts and also drilling out the small nozzles with tiny drills this afternoon. Not entirely successful - the inserts were OK-ish, but the drilling wasn't convincing. it could be that it needs someone who knows what they're doing :) The 'Tool 2' nozzles are fairly convincing straight off the printer so if anyone has spare brass inserts and wants to try them out, let me know. Otherwise I have a few more ideas re inserts and tiny holes - if anyone has any thoughts also let me know.

A.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Mike on December 14, 2017, 11:09:36 PM
For holes it should help to at least have a central dimple in the 3D print to centre the drill.
Pity  you can't (easily) make the theta motor spin continuously - you could just use a vertically mounted drill bit to at least start the hole.

Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on December 17, 2017, 03:27:43 PM
... the RVxS as accurate x/y drilling machine - like it :)

Good point re dimples - have sent in another batch with them, also versions which may not need the brass bush, a Tool 3 as mine is beaten up, and tests of little holes in various materials. Arriving around the new year.

A.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on December 18, 2017, 05:03:28 PM
Drilling on a lathe should be reasonably easy but needs patience

My lathe is a quite big ( about 7 feet long ), but very ancient belt drive job with an 8" Taylor chuck and it was fine drilling down to 0.4mm

I don't have any tools or fittings to do very small stuff so i winged it.

I put a bit of scrap in the chuck and turned it down to the same diameter as the RV toolholder stub
machined a groove in it for the  O ring
fitted an O ring

then mounted a small pin vice in the Jacobs chuck in the tailstock ( this is the weak point in the process, I bought the parts to make a proper collect chuck miniature drilling jig, but like many things, never got round to making it.)

I spend most of the time getting the tailstock set up properly so that the drill was on centre..

I didn't drill too deep, finishing off with a 0.8mm from the inside as it felt a but safer..
but if they were printed with a slightly hollow conical section, it would solve that problem

just a shame I only had a couple of nozzles to drill at the time ( and no, I'm not volunteering to do them all !)

Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on December 18, 2017, 06:47:20 PM
Thanks for the hints - lack of machinist skill / subtlety / accuracy on my part I think :) Just checked again and the tailstock centreing is actually better than I thought - maybe 0.5mm low, but that needs to be fixed before I can accurately get a 0.4/0.6mm hole in the end of a 1mm nozzle :) I was using a tiny 0.3-1mm chuck mounted in the normal tailstock chuck.

I'll give it another whirl - in fact if that's all it does, that'll be fine.

Alan
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on December 20, 2017, 12:31:34 PM
Ah I think I have a way to do this accurately without sorting the tailstock out - which is a side project I would rather not engage in atm. Will order in a few more bits...

@spiyda - when you're making the brass nozzle inserts - do you normally start off with bar or tube?

Alan
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on December 21, 2017, 05:50:49 PM
Quote from: alanambrose on December 20, 2017, 12:31:34 PM

@spiyda - when you're making the brass nozzle inserts - do you normally start off with bar or tube?

Alan

I depends on what you are chucking it up in..
a three jaw chuck can quite easily crush and distort tube..

I'm lucky that the jaws on my three jaw chuck actually grip the tube at six places, so tube is fine..

When I made a few I reamed the inside of the tube, them machined the outside, then parted them off.

Chris
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: ColinBarron on December 30, 2017, 12:54:19 AM
If size is critical why not pre drill 0.8mm part way from the back as suggested then drill under size from the front and then ream to size.  Then use a drill blank to confirm size.  If the size is slightly out you can use a tapered diamond file.   
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on January 02, 2018, 04:23:35 PM
>>> then drill under size from the front and then ream to size

:) you can actually get 0.4mm reamers e.g.

https://www.accu.co.uk/en/machine-reamers/444469-221450-0400 (https://www.accu.co.uk/en/machine-reamers/444469-221450-0400)

but I think that's well beyond my machining ability / capabilities of the equipment I have to hand.

A bunch of new nozzle tests have come in plus a nozzle cup (I'm missing one) / a replacement 'light cover plate' for the Z-axis / a test of a new size nozzle for a 5050 led / a nozzle base to take an off-the-shelf 3D printer 0.4mm brass nozzle / some more material tests. I can already see the dimples have not worked out so well so far - too little resolution, but one of the material tests looks like a big improvement. I'll do some more drilling / lathe work / testing later in the week.

I noticed a reference to 'RVT01.5' and 'RVTMELF' nozzles in the Versa price lists. Anyone seen any drawings or have one?

A.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Mike on January 02, 2018, 11:16:04 PM
I have a nozzle marked "Melf", which just looks like a T2 with a semicircular groove filed into the end.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: trev on January 03, 2018, 04:25:41 PM
I just bought a bag of new/old nozzles from Grove. I cant see any markings on them so I do not know which are which. Is there an easy way to tell?

Trev
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Mike on January 03, 2018, 10:52:39 PM
Big holes T1, Small T6
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on January 05, 2018, 02:27:25 PM
Quote from: Mike on January 02, 2018, 11:16:04 PM
I have a nozzle marked "Melf", which just looks like a T2 with a semicircular groove filed into the end.

Mike, what is the orientation of the groove compared to the flats on the flange ?
I need to place some melf type zeners so I'll need to modify a nozzle

and once modified, how do you rotate it when setting up the feeder ?

Chris
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: trev on January 06, 2018, 04:48:42 PM
I seem to have a few spares, it would be useful to make up a melf nozzle from one of them if possible. Do you have an image of the nozzle?

Trev
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Mike on January 08, 2018, 12:38:10 PM
Quote from: trev on January 06, 2018, 04:48:42 PM
I seem to have a few spares, it would be useful to make up a melf nozzle from one of them if possible. Do you have an image of the nozzle?

Trev
Quote from: trev on January 06, 2018, 04:48:42 PM
I seem to have a few spares, it would be useful to make up a melf nozzle from one of them if possible. Do you have an image of the nozzle?

Trev
Just had a look & seems I repurposed it into another special so can' tell slot direction - shouldn't be hard to figure out though by marking a nozzle, and picking a part with run-time test.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on January 08, 2018, 01:42:54 PM
I just did a quick test ( not entirely accurate ) but at least a sanity check

marking the orientation on a plain nozzle picked from position 1

picking from right hand side  feeder nearest the front, slot nearest the back

the component seemed to be about 10 degrees adrift from the flats on the nozzle..

quick sketch showing what I mean

(http://www.spiyda.com/temporary/IMG_1220.JPG)

I don't have any spare nozzles to try at the moment, having had a couple of head crashes at the weekend  ( see other post)

Edit....  I measured using several nozzles and the angle is actually closer to 16 degrees.
that is what I will work on for my first attempt at making one  ( when this flu is gone  :-(  )



Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on January 09, 2018, 04:03:12 PM
>>> I just bought a bag of new/old nozzles from Grove. I cant see any markings on them so I do not know which are which. Is there an easy way to tell?

http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/Nozzle%20summary.png (http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/Nozzle%20summary.png)

Tools are:

1 2 3 4 5
6

- when looking from the front of the machine.

Alan

p.s. I made some more convincing brass and PTFE inserts today, waiting on a few bits before trying the drilling operation again and ordered a few more nozzle blanks.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on January 09, 2018, 07:59:57 PM
I don't know what the limit is, but a nozzle 1.5mm shorter than spec still works fine on my machine,
as long as it passes the little calibration process after loading, it is fine.
So if I get one with a nick in the side, I just machine the end off.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: trev on January 10, 2018, 05:56:16 PM
Thanks. Machine all plugged in and working my way through the manual. Tools in correct positions now helps. Uses Tool5 to calibrate head and comes up with error but I think it's at least using the correct tool to calibrate.

I am testing with the tired looking tools first. Might be in a position soon to test 3d printed tools. What resolution printer do you think is required for nozzles?



Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Mike on January 10, 2018, 09:28:57 PM
Quote from: trev on January 10, 2018, 05:56:16 PM
Thanks. Machine all plugged in and working my way through the manual. Tools in correct positions now helps. Uses Tool5 to calibrate head and comes up with error but I think it's at least using the correct tool to calibrate.
It does this apparently randomly, depending on the job - some jobs do it, some not. I suspect it may be related to maximum component size in the job, or some charactistic of a CDF used in the job.
Failing the test doesn't stop it proceeding, it's just annoying. 
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: trev on January 10, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Good to know I don't have to lose.days trying to figure out reason for it failing.

Managed to place 0603 resistors. Slowed the machine down to do it and also used tool6 instead of tool1. Might be down to old nozzle but tool6 gave pretty decent results. Getting the odd component too large fail but position  is decent when placement is completed
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on January 11, 2018, 12:25:35 PM
Quote from: trev on January 10, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Getting the odd component too large fail but position  is decent when placement is completed

You probably worked this out, but this happens to me when lighting is different, or sometimes with a reel from a different supplier...

exit the place program,
Edit the CDF file for that component
set the "run time test" flag

then when you run the board, the machine will stop after imaging the component and allow you to tweak the values..
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Mike on January 12, 2018, 12:34:09 AM
Quote from: spiyda on January 11, 2018, 12:25:35 PM
Quote from: trev on January 10, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Getting the odd component too large fail but position  is decent when placement is completed

You probably worked this out, but this happens to me when lighting is different, or sometimes with a reel from a different supplier...

exit the place program,
Edit the CDF file for that component
set the "run time test" flag

then when you run the board, the machine will stop after imaging the component and allow you to tweak the values..

BTW "exit place program" just means exit from placing mode, not exiting RVPlace!

If only there was a button you could hit for "Stop placing and edit the CDF of the part you just falled to place.." - that would save sooo much time!
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: trev on January 12, 2018, 10:19:02 AM
Quote from: spiyda on January 11, 2018, 12:25:35 PM
Quote from: trev on January 10, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Getting the odd component too large fail but position  is decent when placement is completed

You probably worked this out, but this happens to me when lighting is different, or sometimes with a reel from a different supplier...

exit the place program,
Edit the CDF file for that component
set the "run time test" flag

then when you run the board, the machine will stop after imaging the component and allow you to tweak the values..

I had figured it would be something like that but had not changed it. It certainly needs a tweak. Thanks
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on January 12, 2018, 05:07:30 PM
>>> What resolution printer do you think is required for nozzles?

For my money, I think professional quality rather than than consumer ones. Also I think, the SLA/DLP processes rather than the SLS laser-sintered powder processes. But interesting question - the hard-to-print features are the end of the tool 1 and 6 nozzles and the lips of the o-ring nozzles - the rest is fairly low spec. The manufacturers are a bit sneaky with their resolution / accuracy specs so I'm finding testing is the only reliable way. It is possible that SLS plus clever manual finishing (drilling, and final turning) will work too. It is possible that DLP may need no finishing. SLA btw is used for jewelry masters and dental.

I'm also testing PTFE rather than brass inserts and also using 3D printer hot-end nozzles as the sharp bit. Sorry this is taking a while, but I think I'm getting there. This is the recent design I sent out (this is a render not a shot of the resulting printed part):

http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/Tool%201%20with%200.5mm%20additions.PNG

... the idea is to turn off the extra 0.5mm addition to end up with a v. accurate nozzle end. If this design direction works out OK then it would also make custom nozzles v. easy to do.

A.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Mike on January 13, 2018, 01:32:13 AM
Another option may be a "rough" nozzle, then push a cut-off stainless dispensing needle through the middle to get a clean pick-up tip.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on January 13, 2018, 02:20:11 AM
UPDATE : I've had a pretty good price quoted from China, so I'll get a few in to try out..
If nothing else it will be a stop gap until complete ones are ready.
and it may be an easy way to get some of the bigger nozzles which will always be lower volume.
(fingers crossed)

A bit of lateral thinking ... It would be interesting to see what the dimensions of something like these is

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SMT-Nozzle-Samsung-sm421-Nozzle-cn040_60676153839.html

in case they could be easily fitted to what remains of a versatronics nozzle when the end is broken off.

These tips for the CP45 are available to fit almost any component...


ps   

I found a drawing online and it looks like they will fit...   

Cut the samsung nozzle where the spring is
Machine off the pointy part of the versatronics nozzle (leaving the 10mm locating disc in place)

drill a hole in the end of the versatronics nozzle to fit the diameter of the samsung..

a nice tight fit or a dob of glue and bobs your uncle.

(http://www.chingyi.com.sg/images/N001012.jpg)

according to the drawing...  it is very, very, very close to being a perfect fit

between us we could buy enough to get them at a pretty low price..  and recondition all those old nozzles.

and it would be a lot easier to fit these to a 3d printed versatronics replica

I guess I will have to buy one at full price to try it out


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8zYAAOSwGy5Y8JhY/s-l1600.jpg)
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on January 19, 2018, 12:36:13 PM
Even better if a Chinese manufacturer can make cheaply to the original design :) ATM these are involving a bit of manual machining work, which isn't great for cost. And yeah, I think cut-off stainless dispensing needle / adapting the pointy bit of other nozzles or 3d printers may be interesting alternatives. I have the bits for adapting a 3D printer nozzle on the workbench, although as it stands it needs a longer 'receiving cup' but which I have printed up already. If anyone has an idea for a source of dispensing needle stock cut to length about ~8mm, please pipe up. BTW it would be easy to print up receptacles for the Samsung nozzles (or any other suitable 'pointy bits' of the right size) if the overall dimensions of the cut-off bit work out. BTW there's a tool height dimension in the rvdata.dat file - although as the existing nozzles are all 15mm, it's anyone's guess whether it works :)

FYI the current state of affairs, and I got the drilling to work late yesterday, at least for 0.6mm drills. New vs. original - the originals are the less mottled ones.
Not too bad but I hope these can be improved:

(http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/1316083734360.bmp)
(http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/1316083737628.bmp)

Let me know if anyone wants to try these out as I'm sure you all have more RVxS experience than me.

Alan
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on February 05, 2018, 12:51:39 AM
Here is what was a broken original nozzle with a Samsung nozzle fitted to it..
the original needs a 3mm hole drilled in the centre,
The Samsung nozzle has to be cut through the middle
then is a push fit in the 3mm hole....!

it works well, except....  the nozzle is about 1mm longer than the original.

(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s48/Iamcabaged/IMG_1239.jpg)

If the original plastic locating boss was removed, it would probably work just fine..
as the boss on the samsung nozzle is within 0.2mm the same diameter... 

but that will have to wait until after I have tested Alan's nozzles.  ( which look good )

Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on February 06, 2018, 05:25:46 PM
That's neat, am I right in thinking the Samsung boss will work instead of the RV boss and then the remainder of the nozzle just needs a 3mm hole (I guess only 1mm deep) to receive the 'donor nozzle' :) ?

A.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on February 07, 2018, 11:09:12 AM
Quote from: alanambrose on February 06, 2018, 05:25:46 PM
That's neat, am I right in thinking the Samsung boss will work instead of the RV boss and then the remainder of the nozzle just needs a 3mm hole (I guess only 1mm deep) to receive the 'donor nozzle' :) ?

A.

Thats it Alan,
they are of course an Alloy rather than plastic, but with the interference fit, I think they will knock off in event of a crash,
that is something I need to test in a controlled way when I finish the present placing run.
Not only that they knock off, but that the hole is re-usable (if that makes sense)


Your No 1 nozzle has now placed a thousand components and seems to be holding up OK
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on February 07, 2018, 11:34:11 AM
>>> Your No 1 nozzle has now placed a thousand components and seems to be holding up OK

Nice, did you feel the need to flatten the business end?

>>> Not only that they knock off, but that the hole is re-usable (if that makes sense)

I could make up some blanks for Samsung nozzles for the in the next run - which I'm planning on sending in over the next day or so. Do you have a preference re brass sleeve, PTFE sleeve or sleeve made of body material (I saw some chat someway back that no-sleeve works fine).

BTW most recent test:

http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/1316247660609.bmp (http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/1316247660609.bmp)

- better detail, but material is a bit more flexible. I'll turn the ends and mount them up.

Alan
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: trev on February 07, 2018, 12:58:39 PM
This looks to be great progress.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on February 07, 2018, 03:23:42 PM
We'll get there eventually :)

@spiyda - is this it for the Samsung base?

http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/RVT%20nozzle%20for%20Samsung%20tips.pdf (http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/RVT%20nozzle%20for%20Samsung%20tips.pdf)

Exactly 3mm hole? Samsung boss just glues onto flat?

A.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: spiyda on February 07, 2018, 07:30:02 PM
Quote from: alanambrose on February 07, 2018, 11:34:11 AM
I could make up some blanks for Samsung nozzles for the in the next run -
Alan

Pm me your address and I will send you a Samsung Nozzle to play with...

see what you think before committing to making any special prints ... 
and I will machine the boss off an original tomorrow to see if the remaining 1mm seems strong enough..

re your nozzle, it was exactly as sent, no cleaning up of any kind  ....  result !

Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on February 14, 2018, 12:42:18 PM
an update..

I managed to crunch the two rev C nozzles, pah. The 1st as I was pressing in the brass sleeve. For the second, I glued in a PTFE sleeve and then reamed the inside diameter off centre. As the famous Canadian says ... it never ends :). The idea of making the ends bigger and then turning to exact size, won't work I think as this new SLA material is more detailed but slightly more bendy.

Faster than expected though I have rev D: 1 'tool 7' o-ring style sized for 5050 LEDs / 2 bases for Samsung nozzles / two more variations of tool 1 - one with 'body' sleeve supposedly printed exact size and one to be reamed as usual. Of course, the last two need the nozzles drilled out to size, but I think I've nailed that. Also a reaming fixture / a sleeve to screen the main camera LED ring from the LEDs / a camera adaptor should I ever get round to calibration.

(http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/1316308498406.bmp) (http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/1316308513356.bmp)

I'll keep you posted...as ever if anyone else wants to test these let me know...the more testing, the better.

Alan
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on February 14, 2018, 03:44:49 PM
OK '5050 tool7', 3D printer version, SLA version, samsung point version glued / reamed / drilled & ready for testing - with a mix of body / PTFE / brass sleeve:

(http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/1316309618448.bmp) (http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/1316309576528.bmp)
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on February 27, 2018, 02:14:08 PM
I think I marginally prefer the PTFE sleeves so I just sent off an order for a complete set of nozzles including a MMU MELF one - all to fit PTFE. FYI I'm using nominal '10x12mm' PTFE tubing, reamed to 10.5mm to fit the pick-up head, and with the nozzles set up to take the 12mm dimension.

A.
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: Mike on March 24, 2018, 03:58:55 PM
I've just done a job where my customer produced some parts using their Formlabs SLA printer - judging from these, I think nozzles made this way could be viable - do you have a file for a nozzle that I can get them to try printing?
Title: Re: Nozzle fabrication/ordering (Nov '17)
Post by: alanambrose on March 27, 2018, 04:34:17 PM
Hi Mike, sorry to be slow replying - I've had a virus. The latest ones were actually done on a formlab. The little bumps are where the supports go and were clipped off. I only just twigged recently that the resin process needs the part to be held at an angle so the non-lasered / non-hardened resin runs off. Hence the asymmetric nature of the bumps and 'laminations'. As well as some gentle fettling, from memory, my formlabs trials still needed drilling out - claimed 3d printing accuracies are to my mind largely bs. Tool 1 to take a brass sleeve here:

http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/STLs/Tool 1 for brass sleeve.stl (http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/STLs/Tool%201%20for%20brass%20sleeve.stl)

The x-section, designed to make drilling easier, is here:

(http://anagram.net/nuts/Versatronics/Nozzles/STLs/Tool%201%20x-section.JPG)

I have at times been successful drilling both from the top and the bottom, but it's a process that could be improved.

Alan